UX research beyond product: working with marketing and sales, and getting closer to the money

Henrik Mattsson · 00:10
Hi everyone, and welcome to season four, episode five of the UX Research Rundown podcast. My name is Henrik Mattsson. I’m the CEO of Lookback and the host of this podcast. As you know, if you’ve followed this season so far, we are talking this season to people who are giving talks at the very soon to come UX… No, it’s called Research Week. Sorry, Alec and Learners, I always get this wrong. The Research Week conference in San Francisco, coming up in a couple of weeks now, in the first week of June.

And with us today, this guest is Abby Hoy Baylen, who is with Later. A social media post scheduling tool. That’s how I know it, anyway. We use it. If you see clips from this on social media, they will have been posted with this tool. Love it. Very practical. And as always, well, first of all, thank you for being here. I appreciate the time.

Abby Hoy Baylen · 01:10
Thanks for having me.

Henrik Mattsson · 01:13
Awesome. As always, we start with the origin story. How did you get into UX research? What was your background, and how was that role? We always talk about this because a lot of people are on that journey or just recently made that journey, and it’s always great to hear how other people got into the field. So we’ll start there, and then we’ll move over to talking a little bit about your upcoming talk.

Abby Hoy Baylen’s Origin Story

Abby Hoy Baylen · 01:37
Yeah, for sure. So, like 90% of people in the research field, it was a winding journey. I took management information systems. I have a degree in business with a focus on MIS, from the University of British Columbia here in Vancouver, BC. I did the co-op program back then, and I graduated and got into web design. And at that time it was the burgeoning of the dotcom era. So, dating myself, but we were using Flash, right? I taught myself some HTML, and then boom, it’s web design.

I was in that field for a few years, and one of my colleagues introduced usability testing at the time. Our clients were primarily in the utility field, and I started to incorporate it more and more into my work. And I have to be honest, I was not a good designer. I was a really bad designer. And the proof in the pudding came when… I like to tell this story because it’s kind of mildly offensive. I had designed this login screen, again for utilities, and there were crossing pipes and things like that.

And during the stakeholder meeting, one of the stakeholders raised their hand to the project manager and said, does anyone see a swastika in that? And it was like, no. Okay. That was a clear stop to my design career.

Henrik Mattsson · 03:43
Oh, wow. Just into the work, and accidentally designing bad patterns.

Abby Hoy Baylen · 03:51
Really the worst pattern possible.

Henrik Mattsson · 03:53
There aren’t a lot of worse ones than that. Wow. That’s a sign to rethink what you’re doing, I guess.

Abby Hoy Baylen · 04:05
Absolutely. I was like, this is exactly a clear sign. I should not be moving down this path. Luckily for me, I had enough initial research experience to join HSBC at the time, and I became a UX architect there. So I went from wireframing, and then there was a calibration of skills, and I got moved to research. That was truly the beginning of my research career, and from the start, it’s been over 15 years. Right? So… And then researching for global products, and then eventually, after a few years, I found my way to Later, and then really got into product research.

Henrik Mattsson · 04:53
Right. Cool. Awesome. Wow. I love that story. I guess this is also a reminder of the good old days when design was more like, you went away and you did your own thing, and there wasn’t this iterative review process all the time. It was just straight into the client meeting. It’s good to show your things early and often. I guess that’s the lesson there. Awesome. Well, there are so many designers out there. It’s good we got another researcher, so that’s great. Cool. Awesome. And what are you going to talk about?

Is it really in two weeks now already? What is awaiting us on stage?

What will Abby be talking about at Research Week?

Abby Hoy Baylen · 05:50
So I will be talking about solar-powered research and what that means. Without trying to give too much away, it’s how can we, as a research function, diversify ourselves and get closer to the money. And not move away completely, but expand, really, from product research to other areas.

Henrik Mattsson · 06:21
Right. I mean, there are so many interesting topics like this rising to the surface at conferences now. Is this something that you have been thinking about for a while, and then this was an opportunity to do it? Or is this something that has been triggered by recent events in our field? How did you arrive at that topic?

What inspired you to talk about this topic?

Abby Hoy Baylen · 06:46
Well, you know, it’s kind of funny, because I didn’t apply to talk in the first place. It was really a conversation. It’s another funny story. It was a conversation that I had with Alec. I spoke at the conference maybe three or four years back, about another topic, mixed methods. And Alec was doing a bunch of really interesting interviews with other people, and I just followed up with him on LinkedIn and said, hey, this is a really cool interview that you just had with this person.

I love hearing this stuff. And so we just started talking about what I was doing. I was pretty passionate about where my team was moving within Later, and how we were getting more projects outside of product. And then he said, hey, do you want to do a talk about this? And I figured, well, Abby, it’s probably time to get out of your cave and talk to people again. So I said yes.

Henrik Mattsson · 08:00
Awesome. Great. I love that. Alec has a nose for good ideas like that. I think it’s one of his many talents, for sure. Before we get too deep into this without defining it: when you say other than product research, I think I have some idea what you mean, but could you give some examples of things that are other than product research?

What areas beyond product research have you been working on?

Abby Hoy Baylen · 08:24
Yeah, for sure. So other than product research, I’m talking about market research, specifically for content marketing. And then also expanding to areas like demand generation within marketing as well. And the other area that’s been really transformational for us as a team is supporting the revenue teams. By the revenue teams, I’m talking about customer success, I’m talking about sales. So any team that’s customer-facing, but actually trying to generate revenue from those conversations.

Henrik Mattsson · 09:10
Right. That’s so interesting. So many questions right away. How do I sort this out? Okay. When you come from the tooling space, and I talk to a lot of people building tools also, we have a great community there with all the co-creators, as we call them. I think you come across this if you build tools for this space: there are so many conversations happening with users and customers, people that companies are interacting with across the board, whether it’s customer success or sales or social media or marketing or something.

There’s a lot of contact, a lot of surface area where conversations are being had, but they’re not traditionally seen as areas of research, or as research. So how has it been to move into those areas? Are people surprised to see the research team there? What’s the reaction?

How have people reacted to you moving into these areas?

Abby Hoy Baylen · 10:15
Well, I wouldn’t really say surprised. There is a little bit of surprise within the company as new leaders come in and they find out that research as a function actually exists within the company. So at that level, yes, they’re surprised. But really, for everyone else, it’s delight. Because then they get to collaborate with a team that actually has some inroads and can understand what methodology to use to answer the questions that they have. Right? And I know that for the revenue teams, for example, it really comes down to, as I mentioned earlier, getting closer to the money, right?

How can we make the organization as a whole more successful through using research as a partner? And so it’s really been a delight factor, because of the data that we can bring in to enhance those customer conversations, as an example. And then from a marketing example, it really is about how we can bring some level of proprietary data to whatever it is that we’re trying to communicate.

Are some areas, like marketing, harder to research than others?

Henrik Mattsson · 11:55
Interesting. I don’t know how much data you’ve collected across these different functions, but when I talk to marketing people, they often tell me that it’s so hard to measure the impact of marketing, and it’s so hard to understand what’s working, what’s not working and all that stuff. Are some of these easier to research than others? Just as with product, are some things easier than others, or…?

Abby Hoy Baylen · 12:30
Yeah. I think how we try to approach it is: what can differentiate ourselves within the industry? Among the competitors, what can differentiate ourselves? And actually, where are we missing the mark? What are the things that we need to be doing to actually get onto the same playing field? And really examining that factor of differentiation, examining what our strengths are. So it’s more about taking advantage of the areas that we have access to. For us, one of those areas is that we have access to tens of thousands of creators as part of our teams, and I’ll talk a little bit more about Later in a moment and why we have access to those creators.

But through doing some level of quantitative research with these respondents, with this pool, this data set really that we have, that’s something that we can deliver to marketing and say, this is a differentiator for us. Through this you can create thought leadership pieces, right? It could be demand gen, email marketing, social media. It can be reused in so many different bits. And so can we measure? There are many different ways of measuring the success of those bits, based on engagement, or based on views and saves, etc.

So that’s kind of how I see it.

Henrik Mattsson · 14:28
Interesting. I love it. People who follow this podcast have heard me talk about this, but I think the researcher skill set is applicable across a bunch of different areas. I often think that you can think about anything as a product, really. I often talk about this in terms of understanding our stakeholders: we’re researching research as a product internally, to see how we create value, the way we’d ask how our users use research. So for me, it’s not surprising that you can have success outside of traditional usability testing and product research.

But I also see that not a lot of people do it. And I’m sure there’s going to be a lot of interest in this talk, because people are like, oh, that might be interesting. So, first of all, am I correct about this, or is it just a narrow view I have, that what you’re doing is fairly uncommon? And if I am correct, what do you think are the things that are stopping people from venturing outside of their traditional box, so to speak?

Is it uncommon for UX researchers to get involved in these areas and what is stopping more researchers doing it?

Abby Hoy Baylen · 15:48
Yeah. So to your first point, around where we are as a research function within this landscape: you have to be pretty nimble as a team, I would say, to move into these different areas. And I know that some companies might be restricted by their size, or by the strategies that they have for research in general. So the speed of movement might be slower. But I feel like directionally this is where research is going over the next five-plus years. I believe that this is where we need to go.

We cannot stay within product and just focus primarily on visual interaction. I think that is one component of it. I really think that research leaders need to embed themselves with the idea of diversification, that you’re running a business. And maybe this has to do with how I have a business degree, so I think about diversifying things a lot more. And then to your second question, around what could potentially be stopping people: like I mentioned, you have to create relationships, and that takes time, right? First off, you have to create a level of trust and belief within the company, within product first, if that’s where you originate from.

And then from there you demonstrate your value to other teams. But it all starts so much with the conversation. And also, like you were saying earlier, knowing that this skill set that we have can lend itself to other areas. I do, however, feel that a team would need to lean more into their quantitative skill set than their qual.

Henrik Mattsson · 18:11
Oh, interesting. Tell me more about that. What makes you say that?

Abby Hoy Baylen · 18:16
Yeah, because with the quantitative, it has to do with the output and the deliverable. It’s quite different from product. For marketing and sales or revenue teams, as an example, if we’re talking about interfacing with external consumers or brands who might be purchasing something, a lot of it is around conversion and changing the way people think. And usually that shift happens when there’s evidence of numbers, of data. I’m not saying that qualitative doesn’t provide that evidence, but I’m saying that the conversion of how people think, I believe, is probably a bit lower.

Can we use qualitative to supplement? Absolutely, absolutely. So if we’re helping to create a marketing report that is data-led, for example, or some type of lead generation marketing report, it would have both components, but it would be led by data.

Henrik Mattsson · 19:34
Right. Because those fields that you’re delivering to are traditionally more quant-led? Is that how I should understand it?

Abby Hoy Baylen · 19:46
Yeah, I think the deliverables themselves typically are quant-led. So for delivering the reports, it’s more quant-led. If we’re delivering stats to a potential prospect or a customer, trying to convince them and say, hey, and I’m just making this up, 60% of creators or 70% of creators use Instagram Reels, you really should be perfecting your strategy towards that.

Henrik Mattsson · 20:14
Right. Because you have all of that data. Of course. Interesting. Cool. So I want to go back to something you said before. Let’s call the times we live in now interesting. That’s a diplomatic term that summarizes a lot of things, right? A lot of change. Some of it is financial stuff, some of it is just unpredictability in the economic landscape, and some of it is new technologies like AI and stuff like that. So when you say we need to move in this direction as a field, this is where the future is, where we have to move over the next couple of years, I’m almost getting a feeling that you’re saying there’s no future for the people who stay put, and the future lies in these other areas.

Which of all of these things, or something else, is driving this? Is this a technology thing, an AI thing, or is it the business landscape changing? What do you think is driving this change that you think we need to adapt to?

What is driving this shift into new research areas?

Abby Hoy Baylen · 21:34
Wow. Wow. That’s a good question. I cannot deny that AI is a factor in any and every aspect of change, for any industry. And I think the other part is, you look at product research and UX research as a whole, it is a maturing area. Right? Design patterns and design systems now are much more mature than they were five years ago. Are you going to be anticipating huge amounts of change? Maybe a bit outside of AI, or even incorporating AI, I don’t really see it changing hugely, unless we start designing for very, very different platforms.

Right? So that’s part of the reason why I feel like there needs to be this expansion of thought beyond product and into other areas. Because I feel like there is a need also. There’s a gap, a white space, within those areas that could really use research. So that’s the way I feel. And maybe the idea of moving closer to the money might be uncomfortable to people, because I think traditional research is very altruistic.

Henrik Mattsson · 23:27
Right, right. Interesting. This is the first time I’ve talked with someone about it in the exact terms that you’re framing it there, so it’s super interesting. But I think there’s a general discussion now, following the downturn in our industry and a lot of people getting laid off and budget cuts and all that stuff. There’s a sense of urgency, of reinventing research as a function, fighting no longer for the classic seat at the table, but actually for survival within organizations in a lot of places. Right?

So people are trying to navigate and see how it’s relevant. And it makes sense what you’re saying: businesses exist to make money. And if you can help a business figure out how to make more money, then you’re going to get a bigger budget. That’s just in the nature of these things. And I’ve totally seen this altruistic sort of, hey, we’re not supposed to do that, we’re supposed to be the voice of the customer, or the voice of the user, or something like that. Nicer, not so much about dollars.

But sometimes I get the feeling that, of course, you want to be close to the money and be the one who’s helping the company make more money and all of that. But that’s also where you put yourself on the line, because what if you can’t? What if you tried and you can’t? Is there also this fear of really getting some hard metrics on your performance or something like that? Do you think that’s stopping people from moving closer to the money, or…?

Abby Hoy Baylen · 25:09
You know, that’s really interesting. I never thought of it that way, as putting research on the line. I see research as an additional input, really an additional partner. And just like how, as a function, we typically use the concept of triangulation to look at multiple different ways of figuring something out, I feel like other teams would use us in the same way. It’s not a one-legged stool. It’s not three-legged. It should be four-legged at least, you know? We are one piece of the puzzle that can make something successful.

And in my talk I’ll also be talking about other key partners that can be brought to those meetings and to that collaboration.

Henrik Mattsson · 26:22
Right. Interesting. Cool. Oh, I’m definitely going to check that out. And what was my other question about this? I agree with you, by the way. Personally, based on everything I’ve seen and heard in this field, I think that research should always expand into other areas. I think it has that special skill set to offer. I’m not surprised when you say that people are delighted to see the research team show up, because they can help, right? I think when research does its job, that’s the feeling that people have.

And if you haven’t worked with research, and then you get that experience of getting very helpful decision-making information, that’s a great feeling. So I always think, hey, just jump into anything. You can apply this method to any aspect of the business, really. But I also know that people can sometimes be overwhelmed just trying to do the research in their small area. We talked about the size of the team and stuff like that too. For people listening to this, how should you position yourself in relation to this if you’re, let’s say, more junior?

Is this something that research leaders should think about, or something that the whole research team should think about? Because I’m sure someone can think, yes, on paper, I see why that would make sense, but I have no idea where to even start as a researcher. What have you seen? What are some tips?

What tips would you give to researchers wanting to move into these new areas?

Abby Hoy Baylen · 28:16
I mean, there’s a couple of parts to this, right? Leadership should 100% be moving this forward. They should be building those relationships within the company and figuring out a roadmap for how to get there. Research should be planting those ideas, planting those seeds in the areas of marketing and revenue teams, around how and what benefits research can provide as part of that. And then the other arm is that a leader should also be working with the team to plant seeds there as well, and give a vision, really give a vision of what research can look like and where we can expand into.

And I think there has to be a real openness to change. I think the reality with the industry right now is that change is inevitable. Change is happening. We just have to prepare ourselves for it. And we’re in the business of reframing, right? We’re in the business of changing mindsets, and convincing. And we have to do that internally within our own teams too. So for a junior researcher or intermediate or whomever, it has to start with their mindset, and knowing that, oh, my skill set can be applied to other areas.

It does not have to be confined to one particular area. So much of what we do is also tied to value. You were talking about the layoffs earlier. We constantly question our value and what we can provide. And I want to say that you can provide immense value, and other people will see it.

Henrik Mattsson · 30:58
I think this topic is so relevant, especially now, but it’s always relevant. Obviously, when things are going great and everyone is growing and hiring, it’s less scary, and you can take more risks and do more of these reframings. Because one thing that happens when resources are tight and everyone is worried about their jobs is that people become risk-averse as well. It doesn’t feel like the time. There’s a paradox there where, on the one hand, rationally, you should probably be breaking new ground and trying new things and trying to reframe.

There’s opportunity in these times as well. But it’s also scary to do it, because you don’t want to do something that doesn’t work. You don’t want to take any big risks. You don’t want to do something unfamiliar. So I think it’s a super interesting and super relevant topic, and directionally that’s where we want to go. But what I’m trying to figure out, and help people figure out also, is all the practicalities of this, right? And I think that’s why it’s so important that you’re giving talks like this.

There are other people also talking about similar things, like, hey, we need to actually adapt to this. Because you’re having a message here of agency, basically: hey, we can actually do something, and not only can we do something, we actually have a great skill set for reframing this thing, right? So, give away as much of your talk as you want here, or not. But what else are some things that you want people to take away from your message, in terms of actually making this thing happen in their own organizations and with their own teams?

Abby Hoy Baylen · 33:02
Yeah. I get it. Right now, in this day and age, operating out of a sense of fear is real. I get that. And maybe listening to some of this might feel a bit overwhelming too, because you’re asking yourself questions around: how am I going to get there? How will I succeed? How will I bring the team there? How can I, as an IC, do this type of work? This might be a partnership between the leader and the IC, or a senior IC, really. But when having those early conversations with other teams, I would try to pinpoint and identify one idea.

What is one project that you can do for them? And then use that as a starting ground. And with that one project, again, really lean into the methods and skill sets that researchers are experts in. And that’s how we started. Once you get that initial project under your belt and they see the value of it, then I guarantee you that will have demonstrated a business need. And that business need will in turn become a flywheel. You’re going to have this flywheel effect. The funny thing is that there is some degree of patience that needs to happen, because the other teams might have to follow their own roadmaps.

It’s not like we got here overnight at all. But I think that it’s important to have those initial conversations, and to try to demonstrate that we have value to provide here. We can offer these benefits to you within this space. We can help you, like you’re saying.

Henrik Mattsson · 35:14
Yeah, I think you’re onto something there that I think is super important, that I see across all the conversations I have with different research teams. It’s a reminder of the importance of researching your stakeholders and finding that one idea. Faithful listeners to this podcast will laugh now, because I always go on and on and on about stakeholders, but it’s just something that we see in the research. We’ve been researching researchers doing research for ten years now, so you just see all of these things. And what you’re saying about spending some time using your research skill set to find that one idea: it doesn’t have to be perfect, but there are going to be a couple of those where, if you deliver just a little bit of new information in that area, people will be like, more, give me more.

There’s definitely something there. To the extent you can talk about it, what was the one idea that you embarked on this journey with? I don’t know to what extent you can share that here.

Abby Hoy Baylen · 36:40
You know, it’s kind of funny, because with marketing, it just started with a conversation. Marketing had seen some of our work, and this is quite a few years ago, and they were interested. Can research help us with getting some data in this? Because we had conducted some past surveys. And I was like, yeah, we can totally help. And it’s kind of interesting, the dynamic was that we didn’t know each other too well, but there was some slight interest and questions of curiosity. Everything stems from curiosity, right?

Can research help us with that? And then the same thing happened with our sales and strategy team. We were running a survey, and there was a question about a brand or something like that, and we’re like, yeah, we can add those couple of questions into this existing survey that we’re running. And that was just a really small taste, such a small taste, to those revenue teams. And they were like, wow, can we monetize some of this? Can this help us? And so the projects started to get a little bit more involved, a little bit bigger.

And then it just became, I wouldn’t say an expectation, but it became a part of a formula for them. And when you can become a part of someone else’s formula, then you have demonstrated your need and your value.

Henrik Mattsson · 38:40
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It’s so interesting. I’ve seen this kind of thing where researchers are trying to prove their worth, but they are overthinking it a little bit. To most researchers, what you’re describing there doesn’t sound like rocket science, what you did. But to your stakeholders, that was like, oh my God, you can find this thing for us. And that just goes back to the importance of understanding your stakeholders. When you’re in a field and you’re an expert, you’re not going to be so impressed by a couple of survey questions.

But when you’re a stakeholder and you haven’t had this resource available to you, it can be super valuable. So don’t overthink it, I guess, is the takeaway there, right? Start somewhere and roll with it.

Abby Hoy Baylen · 39:52
Yes, yes. And I would add to that, again going back to the value: they don’t have that information right now. And again, the method that we use is not going to be so different from what we use normally. But it’s really the data, proprietary data that isn’t available elsewhere. You can’t search for it. But we have it through our own methods, and we provide it. And so that’s special. That’s different.

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Henrik Mattsson · 40:33
Right, right. Oh, I love it. Interesting. So cool. We’ve been talking about marketing and those things. When you say solar-powered, and getting closer to the money and everything, obviously you start thinking about the sales team or something like that. But what are some of the possible avenues that you can take to get closer to the money? And I’ll tell you why I’m asking. I think product research for a product-led company would technically also, in a sense, be close to the money. So could you clarify a little bit what you mean by being close to the money?

I think I know what you mean, but I want to hear your take on it.

What do you mean by “being close to the money”?

Abby Hoy Baylen · 41:36
Yeah. That’s a good question. When I say get close to the money: how can we get close to contributing to the sale of something? Right? And if you really want to be ambitious, how can research be another line item within the bounds? So that’s what I mean. As close to the revenue-making as possible. And that can take different forms, depending on your product and everything.

Henrik Mattsson · 42:16
So, let’s see if I understand you. It’s not necessarily about getting closer to the people who are doing the sale, but getting yourself involved in selling the things that we sell, basically. Not necessarily just working with sales, but whatever form that takes.

Abby Hoy Baylen · 42:48
Exactly. It’s: can we be another input into making a successful sale? From a product perspective, there are ways that you can measure that, but it’s a bit more indirect. With product, research is less of a direct input, where we would be providing more discovery and generative research, and it’s a bit harder to measure. Whereas with sales, we can say that as part of the ACV or MRR for this particular client, research was part of that.

Henrik Mattsson · 43:46
Yeah, it’s a good point. When you say getting closer, what you’re really saying is make it less abstract, and more part of the way that the organization measures money, basically. Right? That’s interesting.

Abby Hoy Baylen · 44:08
Yeah. It is a literal thing.

Henrik Mattsson · 44:12
Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Oh, I love it. I think the future of research is bright. But I do think it is changing, as you’re saying. And I definitely think this is one of the ways that we need to go. These haven’t traditionally been areas of a business that are heavily populated by researchers. But with your example, why not? Let’s just move in there and see what happens. Right?

Abby Hoy Baylen · 44:44
It’s funny. We’re all about experimenting, research as a field. So why not experiment with how else we can expand ourselves?

Henrik Mattsson · 44:53
No. Look, you’re preaching to the choir there. This is actually one of the areas that, if I ever write the book about what I’ve learned researching researchers, I think is so fascinating. I’ve talked to other research leaders about similar things, about how to organize to be closer to the value-generating aspect of the business. It could be being closer to leadership, it could be having the classic seat at the table. It takes different forms, this kind of thing. And whenever I talk to someone about it, and this was not an exception, it turns out the research skill set, and I’m not talking about conducting an interview, but reframing, as I think you said, exploring, figuring out what has value, what works, how people will use the thing, those are exactly the skill sets that we need to move into these areas and be useful and be valuable.

And yet we see so little of it. And I think that’s such an interesting phenomenon. I don’t know why it is, but every time I have a conversation like this, I’m getting another dimension of that thing, basically. So I guess everyone like you is contributing one piece of the puzzle to evolve research into all of these things. Something like that. Sorry, a bit of a rant at the end, inspired by your talk. I don’t know if these patterns are visible to other people in the field who have had similar conversations, or if this is just me moving into an alternative universe, because I’m having all of these interesting podcast discussions with leaders in the field, plus I’m doing research on researchers.

But there’s definitely something here, for sure. So if you want to know more about this stuff, dear listeners, then you have to tune in to this talk, which is going to be in a couple of weeks now in San Francisco. Is it on the Thursday? Cool. We’ve reached that point where we have to start rounding off the conversation. The time just flew. I thought this was super interesting. Is there anything you want to pitch, anything you’re working on, anywhere that people can follow you on social media if they found this interesting?

Abby Hoy Baylen · 47:41
Yes. You can find me on LinkedIn, Abby Hoy Baylen. Also, I am hiring a senior, to be based in Vancouver, BC, but we may expand our search elsewhere.

Henrik Mattsson · 47:56
Cool. And then you’ll be working on all of these cool new areas, the future areas of research. Awesome. Cool. Very, very good. Okay. Well, thank you so much, everyone, for listening. Thank you, Abby, for being here. And see you in San Francisco or online. So happy researching, everyone. Bye bye.